International Green Dragon Society
Presented by jb & mlp
Presented by jb & mlp
This video IN NO WAY represents the Orthodox Green Dragon Society
777Disciple
(2 weeks ago)
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Beware. The GDS is a very shady organization. They have used false
information in selling thier art (In the early 70's they used a now
well known picture of a Shaolin master breaking a stack of bricks and
claimed it was one of their master's ), phoney phone numbers and
addresses. The website no longer exists and if you go to WGN to see
when this clip was on - it is not listed.
The clip was removed the next day after WGN was alerted, by me, of all that is being discussed here.
In the clip she called this master, "Master gerald," if it is gerald
warren than he has definitely cheated people selling books and tapes
people never got. It seams it depends on who is in charge as to whether
you are treated well or not. It is a shame, the idea and the art seem
interesting, but people within the art have dishonored it and it's
organization.
There is a REAL Green Dragon Society. He is not in the ORTHODOX line.
He does not know the FULL FISTIC ARTS of CHI TAO CHUAN. There are REAL
TRIANGLE families that know the PURE ART. For I talk for MANY EYES
& EARS.
Are you saying Gerald Warren is not in the true line? He is currently
redoing his website and trying to set up an online store and get
investors to sell his products on chi tao. If he is not I feel sorry
for the style. It is people like him that give the Green Dragon Society
a bad reputation.
Show whole damn clip, man! The gung fu is actually SHAOLIN. Where is
the CHI TAO CHUAN? Where is the WU DANG aspect? It is time to create
DIALOGUE.
Hey WuTaoFist give me a call tonite. The brothers in NYC are laughing
at this clip.Thanks for emailing pics of his kwoon located on Devon in
Chicago.
I have read enough. Leave the master alone. At least he is doing work.
Where are your websites? Where are your schools? Where are your youtube
clips?
I studied with him around 1993. I left for medical school.He was the
best in the bloodmatches. And I bet none of you can claim that.
I am not studying with him now. But I still know all of my forms.
Warren always said that many you older guys had 4got ur forms. This is
why u don't have schools.
This is why the organization is not tight, because you guys keep infighting. Stop letting the world see the dirty laundry.
He has made many real Shifus! He is actually a Grandmaster of the Art.
He is a tremendous contributor in Chen & Yang Tai Chi. He is the
only person that actually promotes the Art.
I am sorry but just becuase you sell newspapers on a street corner
...doesn't make you it's editor. It is the RIGHT of every practitioner
of any art to dispense with it as they see fit. You nor anyone have a
right to say they didn't do their part! If it wasn't for the ancients,
Warren nor any of us would have anything to talk about. Respect,
descretion, and humility is needed here. Know your place.
Most of these comments are from idiots, who never met Grandmaster
Warren. And all of what is seen is real. That is CHI. I challenge any
one to do a video response.
ArizonaTaiChi: You should be ashamed of yourself defending a "man" like
this. There were other credit card transactions, in MY NAME, in Arizona
over time. Were you getting a cut, or just defending a criminal out of
loyalty? This man should stand alone based on his actions. His behavior
and demonstrations do not represent the CTC I am familiar with.
What is the Grandmasters proper title and how long have you been calling Warren this. Please
reframe from calling others you know or don't know idiots u tell on your self 4 no reason.
David as man can ask all the questions he likes in America that is his given right.
However Your Grandmaster should have enlighten you about proper procedures for david's Q&A.
reframe from calling others you know or don't know idiots u tell on your self 4 no reason.
David as man can ask all the questions he likes in America that is his given right.
However Your Grandmaster should have enlighten you about proper procedures for david's Q&A.
Violetsash David continue to ask questions. Stop knocking violet sash.
At least he has honor for his teacher. That is a sign of true loyalty.
As far as the organization being shady...that is an individual issue.
He nor the organization has ever been sued. That says alot.
Maybe you were able to enjoy a meal with jerry on 5/22/01 at the
Chili's in Tempe. If so, how delicious did the food, paid for with a
credit card in MY NAME, taste? This was a few months before I found out
the credit card company was suing ME. Thats' how ID theft works.
As a friend and authority, I say to cease and desist from any further
bad remarks about the Art or Grandmaster Warren. This is a direct
order. If you have bad things to say, keep it to yourself.
Who the hell are you to say that?? This man is a LIAR and Identity
thief..its fact and proven...act like you don't see it. In the end, you
and only you will have to look at yourself in the mirror. Is Warren a
dai shih (?) is it? Why would anyone promote him...why do the old Chi
tao people I heard about keep promoting him? its a shame..really.
Id theft, forgery, mail fraud... ALL proven, and I dare you to dispute it. Are you an accomplice, or just an enabler?
Warren if you are reading this, I encourage you to post more clips on You Tube. Keep up the great work.
Well said @ Arizona Tai Chi. The truth is: Master Warren is the
undisputed authority on we do. Others say this or that, but they never
CAN SHOW evidence!
Truth: many of those who studied the Art forgot it; very few know what
we know. Most of the comments are from masters that do nothing but
complain. Envy is what it is!
Can any of you guys help a friend? His name is Floyd Webb. He has a
blog about Count Dante/ Black Dragon Society. Info is needed. He is
making a cool documentary.
This is Floyd Webb. What makes me fanatic because I want to get to the
truth about a historical event? The events are not DEAD, People still
talk about it. They talk about it because the TRUTH has never come out
about what happened that day, April 23, 1970. No one is blaming anyone
or trying to resurrect a case. It is merely a clarification of history.
Anyway, not to worry, there is nothing the contemporary Green Dragon
Society can tell me.
I have already done the report, it will be public soon. The good that
can come out of is as to serve as a cautionary tale of ego versus good
sense. We can never use too much good sense.
Masters at his claimed level do not require that kind of draw back to
break a single brick. If you want to demonstrate and show ability he
should have started just above the brick (or broke it on a flat surface
- a true feat).
Warren cheated many. He just hid well. The only reason I have his real
name is because he signed the check. Who is going to sue over an amount
less than $100. But mail fraud is very real. If he starts to do it
again I will collect evidence and go to the state's attorney's office.
It is his own fault if he is dishonorable. I thought in the martial
arts honor and reputation mean something.
I am not nearly high enough rank to comment on his ability, however I
will say what I learned there under many good people (Steele, Vicki,
Lupe, Arnold, Jason and Tim (I still talk to him) served me well. They
did what they could to protect us from Warren's ways and teach us. He
is shaming us all. I love Chi Tao.
Actually, I forgot to mention that I heard that ALL of his senior
students and sifus left him last year becuase he stole money/ID from
students. I don't know any of the guys in this video...must be the ones
that don't care about what he does..or are in league with him..i dont
know..for those that remember me..im Blue sash Paul...the guy that he
robbed in China and left. Peace!
Hmmm...this is a true shame. I really don't know what to think of all
of this. I was sent a email about this video and well..let me say that
this is NO reflection of the Chi Tao that I was taught over the years.
It looks Wu Shu like. Let me say for the sake of my students...don't
judge the Society nor Chi Tao by one person's actions. It is much too
honorable and respectable for that. Stop the dispute and remember that
we are supposed to be upright people and masters. Take care.
Just for the record..I was a student of Warrens and I was promoted to
Shifu by him as well. We also left over finding out about his actions
regarding students that he was charged to instruct and protect. I am
content to stay in my little corner of the universe. To loyalpupil,
arizonataichi, and other supporters...just remember that you too are
responsible for any that you teach in the name of the IGDS. We left a
better example than this. No attack..just truth.
Shentao - you speak well. I am an old member of the Brotherhood of the
Phoenix; studied with the greats: hoffman; swan; mislove; milici. it is
time to become ONE!
I found out about this via craigslist under rants and raves; post says
"International Green Dragon Society is baaack". such posts will
resurrect many "sleeping dragons"
A few months ago there was a young black guy doing clips of Chi Tao. He
is channel is down. It was zandoflicks[?] He didnt do forms, but
"concepts & principles". quite interesting....
Thank you. Those clips were posted by my student of footage that we
shot. Not our best work..most due to being inschool lecture stuff. To
be honest, his account was hacked and those were taken down by someone.
I can only assume that it upset the High masters. I chose to keep it
down, until someone higher than myself reviews & grants permission
for me to put something up. I would NEVER show any of the Arts kuens
openly. Then again we don't make a single dime of profit from
teaching...
Btw...im 33...I just do alot of tai chi and chi gung..:) I actually got
my internal from Master Zhang , Pui Yang (72), who owned a number of
stores and businesses in Chicago's 'chinatown'(now in vancouver). He is
an adept at taoist internal alchemy/longevity, Zhang Zuan, and Emei
family arts. For those that know him..I am adopted brother to his
grandson John. I studied with him since 2002, with over 4-4.5 years
straight. he actually is the one that taught me to respect all adepts
and masters.
Bring his clips back. He did all the classical 8 animals. He was very
young in age. Maybe no older than 26yrs. Anyone know of him?
Shentaoba, you speak the truth. i was there when gerald used his
students info and social security numbers to open credit cards in the
schools name. i was there when he used these card to pay for china
trips he had collected money for and spent. card he used to pay for his
BMW. ever wonder why he would need your social to teach you kung fu?
for an esteemed "master" he spent way too much time bad mouthing other
people "who wronged or lied about him." if so many people are against
him, there must be a reason.
so, those who loyally support him, are either completly ignorant of his criminal activity or don't care and have turned a blind eye. The latter are the ones i feel most sorry for, because when he is no longer around to teach, you will lose the most...respect the art, not the man
so, those who loyally support him, are either completly ignorant of his criminal activity or don't care and have turned a blind eye. The latter are the ones i feel most sorry for, because when he is no longer around to teach, you will lose the most...respect the art, not the man
@HaveBeen> Warren told us about Ex-Students who had temple issues.
This makes sense now. We understand why he LEFT you guys. Did u ever
try to talk with the MASTER?
If Warren stole? Did u not try to ask him why? He has truly sacrificed
much to many men. Most pupils never take the time to know their
teacher. Did u?
Ask him why he signed MY name and used MY SSN to establish credit
without permission? Why the bills went to HIS address in MY name? Why
bills were paid with HIS OWN checks from HIS account with HIS PO Box or
address to keep accounts afloat? I did ask him to repay the 15K+ he
owed me, to which he agreed but never paid... Now over 30K with
interest.
Mr. Warren: Why did you steal your students' identities including mine?
Why did you forge my name without permission? Why won't you pay back
money you owe and agreed to repay? Why have you been doing this for
years to many students? Why are sycophants defending you? Why do you
dishonor their loyalty as well as ours? AZ: Will you answer for him, or
ARE you him?
Warren has truly made great roads in Tai Chi. He has made great strides
to preserve all of the internal arts. Again I say: cease and desist all
negative cooments. This is a direct order!
I apologize for saying this..but you are absolutely rediculous and
reflective of EVERYTHING that is wrong with Warren even teaching. How
can you even defend this thieving man that uses his titles to control
and manipulate people? Asking victims to justify why THEY didn't ask
him why he stole from them??? Comeon!!
@HaveBeen> we are not here to make you feel afraid or cautious. This
is a statement of clarity. Do you understand me now?
Let me say this right now. I give not a care for how you try to
clarify. If ANYTHING happens to anyone under my charge..I will hold
Warren directly responsible. No one else. Gerald you know who I am and
who I am with. You mistake me. You need to reign in your supporters (if
it isn't you) throwing around these direct orders. Leave us be.
For the IGDS brothers in Illinois: continue to post more clips of the MASTER."The art shall flourish in a new land".
i speak my mind freely and with a clear conscience. this "master" is a
criminal. he has taken advantage of many students, students he should
have protected. he is only out for himself and uses the art as a shield
and vehicle to live an extravagant lifestyle of the backs of others.
Any student that is under my care..is hereafter to stop wasting time
and energy on this topic. Many here know the truth no need to repeat
it. I have tried to remain civil but now I am just irritated that
others dare question the sun when it is shining directly in their face.
Thank you to all of the temple brothers that defended & upheld the
Path that Chi Tao stands for..they in their quiet peaceful way...are
what we should strive to emulate.
I am second in command to the MASTER.
Certain things are said are falsehoods.
The Art; the regime; the TAO shall move forward. We are the future.
Certain things are said are falsehoods.
The Art; the regime; the TAO shall move forward. We are the future.
As of now: all "eyes" are watching.
Let the past be the past!
Hint: rest the usage of SUBURBS in chicago.
We know you; your SHIFU; and location.
This is not a cause for alarm.
Let the past be the past!
Hint: rest the usage of SUBURBS in chicago.
We know you; your SHIFU; and location.
This is not a cause for alarm.
Thank you all for watching OUR BROADCAST. More clips to come.
Not once did WE speak wrong of you.
The peace is KEPT. No need for alarm
Not once did WE speak wrong of you.
The peace is KEPT. No need for alarm
what? to dismiss the wrongs being discussed out of hand is a disservice
to all involved. everyone should be alerted to the fact that if it
happened before it will most assuredly happen again, most likely to
some new black sash who comes to learn and leaves with his or her
credit ruined.
I trained under the Great master Gerald Warren,and I say Great because
the man is a true master. For someone to say he is not a true master is
talking out of jealousy and does not know him. I can also say as a
former student I have NEVER been cheated or stolen from. I don't
believe these falsehoods being told about a great man who is a true
master of Chi Tao.
You are kidding right? I went to China with him...even moved my home
closer so that i could train. He uses title and opportunity to take
advantage of students. The problem is that..like me..most students dont
want to believe that their teacher is a liar and thief. Add to
that..the fact that most just leave..not even telling the others...they
just disappear. True Masters dont steal from devoted students. Do the
old masters know of anyone that did this?
Chi Shih Warren Is a High Master of the art of Chi Tao(True)and... it
is funny to see that what he did or what he's doing is so importent to
so many.this is his business and the students who have issues with him,
and only them. Let him handle his business like the man I know he is
and stop making him look bad by defending him from a distance not
knowing what going on.
Handle his business? No offense but from what i can gather from this
footage and comments here..i am glad that I left. And who are all of
the others...like in NY..why do you continue to let him teach in the
name of the Art. While I dont train anymore..I learned alot. Aren't you
supposed to protect students? Are there other schools that some can go
to...to avoid this charlatan?
well happy holidays..im going back to CA. Take care and shentaoba is
right, stop wasting time..some just have been wronged so deeply..had to
say something when he is being supported for being righteous and a
master. Gerald Warren is not deserving of respect and until he faces
his wrongs..he is a dog in my eyes that cares little for others. If I
recall correctly don't you have a church? Sad..
I meant no disrespect by refering to the master by name. When I started
he was Tien Chi Jen and then was promoted to Chi Shih, That was more
than 12 years ago. I figured he would be a Da shih by now.
I am sorry..why would so many be jealous of him? Why would all of us
just claim he stole our SSN and credit info? I am no Master of Chi
tao..I own nothing..and no one knows who i am...so i can't benefit from
telling the truth. he may have some gung fu skill..but that isn't what
many of us are upset about..its his continued pattern of stealing from
his students...many of which just came to learn. Why have ALL of his
masters and old instructors left over the years? Is that normal??
I have little need to talk about this but hate to see this twisted
reallity. No 1 has studied under this man as long as me accept 4 his
first 2 Sifu's and only 1 of them are what they say. the truth can not
be hidden in your hearts u know. however because I'am the hung Kwan 426
if there is a issues lets meet and talk if not, there is aways the
circle!!! it is are right,with all due respect and no disrespect I
stand with Shentaoba.
I love all my brother and sister of the temple yes we had sisters
remeber Ting Sifu Vicki... This has to stop brother Jackson Karatchi
Malone and others from days of old and the true brothers of today stand
up be a man and make whats wrong right or be silent.
I trained with Steele, Lupe, Angelo,Emil, and Vicki, I remember when
she was a black sash. Do you know if any of them are still ivolved in
Chi Tao?
Thank God for youtube. If I had a choice between ID theft and sex
abuse...ID theft is the lesser of 2 evils. I remember when he was just
a plain ole sifu...and so many secrets were kept.
Names like Esther Horton, Joyce Heard, Gloria West, and others. Women talk. And no hell like a woman scorned!
I have been hurt for years! I never knew how to find u. Thank God for
You Tube! I remember the "backroom" of the Devon school? Jerry u
remember them 2!
And contacted those "people in Colorado" by email. I told them 2 watch
this clip/ comments. I hope they watch. I hope they do!
What most guys who are "dogs" don't know is that girls talk. and we
discuss much! i wish i never met u. yes i did email "those people in
colorado". maybe they will "heal you"
And oh i am oldskool with u: remember when u taught @ ur church on
111th street. most preachers are like the priests they prey on the
weak... i wish i never met U!!!!!!
u always changed ur #; always kept moving; but i even spoke w/ ur ex-wife..like i said women talk...i wish i never met u!
i TRUSTED u, man! it is so hard being a private student of urs. and
harder 2 see ur child. does the baby know how bad dad can be.
thank God for youtube!
thank God for youtube!
and guess what? i bet u would take a male student's girl behind his
back. u are so full of it. i guess i need to email those "people in
Colorado" again. i want everyone to read this.
uknowme. now baby, my number has changed...but baby, u know where i live. let's talk baby. i still luv u.
I must apologize if I insulted a Ting Sifu Allen that msg'd me
regarding Warren being supported by the Grandmaster. That is suprising,
given all of this..I mean ALL of these posts about him being
dishonest..coupled with his top promoted students supporting their
claims..it would be seem they gain nothing by saying all of this. Also,
i know that he wronged me and others..believe me or not. But i meant no
disrespect to other masters..
as an aside..Sifu Davis was a friend of mine for over 13 years (China
& here). He has decided to refrain for anymore posts..to set an
example for his students. That is what a teacher should do. i will say
that after speaking to him tonight, he seems to feel nothing but pity
and contempt for his former teacher...say that Warren taught him the
great lesson of humility and how not to get caught up in titles. He
doesnt seem angry(could be wrong)considering..Warren do you know Wu Te?
After again speaking Sifu Davis I must apologize directly to any of the
Masters that might have taken offense to my tone regarding Warren.
Since he has already openly stated here that he is a friend of
mine...and I was a blue sash..I was out of line after he said stop.
Still Warren is not to be trusted in any fashion and I hope that God
takes care of him.
4 Floyd Webb: u r doing a great job. but learn patience. let time
INVITE you to history. don't let ur ambitions yield an IRON CURTAIN 2
the real truth. Certain things in the past really do need to stay
buried no matter how many ppl STILL talk about it. there are great
reasons why no one w/ common sense talks about "the dojo wars"
As for Gerald Warren: what is done in the dark does come to light;
especially if you are a SHIFU of the TAO. Warren make it RIGHT w/ those
who feel wronged by u. U can do this. Don't avoid the past. Do right so
that ur name will not be tarnished. I am older than you, young man.
Listen to wisdom.
As 4 the ladyquietscorpion: learn forgiveness. Did u know that
bitterness will kill u? And stop emailing ppl. This causes further
confusion.
As 4 those who support Warren: pray for the man. 4 him to see these
remarks, he might do a very foolish act. As 4 those who dislike him:
let this b a moral 2 u not 2 allow urself 2 do 2 others like what
occured 2 u.
Deception#1: any 4 grown men LIFT a woman using "clasped" fingers. That
is not chi, that is simple PHYSICS. Try that same feat with 1 man using
"clasped" fingers. Footage from 0:00 to 0:40
Deception#2: a true break is done without spacers. And the motion from
body to brick shld be between 4 to 6 inches! And it shld be executed
with no strain. Your bodyweight is more than 185lbs! Your bodyweight
broke the patio block. This is not the evidence of true Iron Palm.
Footage from 0:56 to 1:14
Deception#3:This is an old Chinese Circus trick. The spearhead is
"tucked" under the chin and u lean the body forward to bend the
spearhead. The staff of the spearhead is bent from bodyweight. When the
spearhead is removed it is bent. This is mere illusion. Again this is
not CHI, but physics. Footage: 1:50 to 2:32
More to Deception#3: Next time let the spearhead be real IRON not
Aluminum. If the Spearhead was Iron, then let the other guy actually
THRUST the damn spearhead into the flesh! Do not tell lies! This is not
Iron Vest!
Warren's demo of chi power is old fashioned carney trix, nothing
more.Those are not true demonstrations of Chi gung. For all the
"enablers" out there, quit making excuses for Warren. Being in "denial"
about his alleged misconduct does not make things "go away". People
with legitimate grievances need to pursue this through the proper
authorities.
Deception#4:The sledge hammer upon the cement brick with spacers
absorbs the IMPACT! Okay try this feat with no BRICK whatsoever. Your
spinal column would have been severed. Plus the young guy did not bring
the hammer down with TRUE POWER! Footage: 2:20 to 2:40
Floyd Webb, the truth about the Dragon Wars is this: Count Dante is
responsible for the death of Jim Koncevik. Dante started th fight by
attacking a gds instructor with a lethal weapon. The melee that ensued
resulted in the death of Jim Koncevik. No one will ever know how it
happened. The courts could not settle the matter, neither could the
police. neither wll you.
Deception#5: That young man does NOT have IRON VEST power. The staff
that was used was a very weak pine wood. Next time use OAK wood! And
let his shirt be off, so we can see the BRUISE.Footage: 2:53 to 3:24
Warren you are listening to the words from not one man, but many "men"
who know CHI. You have disgraced the ART of CHI TAO CHUAN! Did Booker
or Price see this? Did they authorize this foolishness? We await your
RETORT!
Finally, anyone who has seen Warren perform alleged chi tao, knows that
his knowledge of the forms are deficient, that his techniques are
flimsy, and that he in fact has limited knowledge of the orthodox forms
of chi tao. All those who have paid money to learn from him have
learned a watered down version of chitao. The real art exists, but not
with the International GDS. he may know tai chi and shaolin, he does
not know chi tao.
Deception#6: The usage of the name "Green Dragon Society". Who gave you
the authority to use the name or banner of the beloved TRIANGLE?
Deception#7: where is your SASH with the TAO? Where is YOUR SASH? Or
perhaps you are CORRECT here: you never GAINED a SASH!
1248 W. Devon: the kwoon is shabby on the outside! You have allowed
vandals to scar the kwoon with Graffiti INK SPRAY! This is foolishness.
It is said that there are NO LIGHTS working in the kwoon? Is this a
truth?
Moral: A man who would DECIEVE the world about CHI is quite LIKELY to
have committed all of these ALLEGATIONS! You should have NEVER been
allowed to STUDY, Mr. Warren. You have MOCKED not just our ART, but
martial arts in general. Who taught you this foolishness?
So for all those who LOVE Mr.Warren...explain these aforementioned
deceptions. Please! Show "US" the truth in this footage. Answer "our"
questions. The floor is YOURS. May the forum continue...
Blood matches?? Warren got stomped on by a panther chi jen!! Whooped
his derrier!!! It's on film. Warren was never "the best" in the blood
matches. That honor alone belongs to the true Imperial Leopard of Chi
Tao Chuan!!! He won every blood match between the years 1967-70. Long
before Warren even entered the Temple. Warren is a "poseur" who
decieves himself and others.
a very young latin guy called joseph saladar was a golden leopard. he
was a high rank. he had the fastest hand speed i ever saw. i think he
was killed in the 70's. he just disappeared. i left the old temple back
around 1973. but nobody could fight like master greenwald. a white kid
by the last name of johnson was also good in combat matching. he quit
for unknown reasons.
the bloodmatches then made the ufc matches look like kid's play. matter
of fact all the sparring were bloodmatches. master booker would make us
fight with intensity. he was a tough cookie. i think he is now
deceased.
i miss those days. i live in texas now. do a little kenpo. do a little
tai chi. do a liitle thuggee. i am an old man now. but i still remember
the basics. those things never leave the mind.
Floyd: Make sure in your movie you tell how DANTE stole the Triangle
Tao and put it on his Dragon Banner. Everyone go to "comments" and look
across and click "links". The 1st link is Floyd's secret BLOG. It has
Dante's Dragon with Banner of the TAO! Explain that in the film, Floyd.
Floyd: make sure you tell how Dante really wanted to study the Entire
Art of Chi Tao, which he refers to as "gung fu". His "Dance of Death"
form is Chi Tao Chuan. Our Art. Make sure you explain that in your
film, Floyd.
I just woke up and saw that you said,"You don't need anything from the
contemporary Green Dragon". You need small facts that will make a big
difference. Floyd, you still need to talk with ppl before releasing
your obsession.
To those of you who consider yourselves this man's allies and students:
do you not know you are also to blame for this travesty? To remain
loyal to one that would compromise through exploitation not only those
he's supposed to guide, but would compromise through recklessness and
ego the society he claims to represent is to make yourself complicit
with whatever should come of this. He has cursed you.
Floyd:make sure u mention how Black Dragon pupils would infiltrate the
Green Dragon halls to learn the Art's forms. I studied at Dante's
southside school. Then went to train at the real mccoy: Green Dragon
Mantis Hall.
To those of you who purport yourselves authorities: if you know so
much, then how has this come to be? Why should anyone recognize your
authority when you've squandered it by letting this man shame you with
impunity? Does your dragon have no face except Warren's? He has
brandished your standard with brazenness while you cowered in secrecy
and now his legacy is the one that triumphs in broad daylight. He has
cursed you.
To those that would tell a woman to learn forgiveness: how many women
have made it to Sifu in the Green Dragon Society? How many men who are
now Sifus kept silent while their sisters were raped and degraded? What
kind of man allows himself to be elevated on the carnage of a woman? A
Green Dragon Society man. Women talk, yes, but women also listen. You
have cursed yourselves.
Floyd: make sure u talk about how Dante was refused to study with the
old Green Dragon Society. Explain his compulsion to try to outdo
Nowakunski in marketing, design, temple ambience. You really do need
your facts.
molotov...very interesting posts! Our dragon or rather TAO has many
faces. These faces stay within. Warren has strayed out of bounds. He
never was a bonofide member. Never!
His face is strewn with spiritual acne! This forum is too TREAT the inflammation!
His face is strewn with spiritual acne! This forum is too TREAT the inflammation!
@molotov...no offense:but i never seen a woman walk the halls of the
old temples. Maybe they did in the 80's or 90's. If so, tell me so.
Floyd: make sure you tell how Dante even took the name Black Dragon to
be a "spin" off of Green Dragon. You need those "small" facts.
Floyd: make sure you tell how the Green Dragon Society influenced the
Chicago martial arts scene. Dante was not the only who was
"spellbound".
Floyd: make sure u have a full understanding of TRIAD and TONG before u
complete ur film. Again u need some many small facts. If u shall make
the moon, don't forget to create the stars...
For anyone: who is Vicki? / Shifu Vicki? When did she train? Who was her teacher[s]? Who were her contemporaries?
At the top of this you tube page are the "comments"/links. One goes
directly to Floydd Webb's connections with the Black Dragon
Society.Thanks to Ready2Bloodmatch for that info. I personally am
convinced that Floydd webb is a agent provocateur, trying to infiltrate
the Green Dragon under the guise of being a filmmaker.
Fact: no one knows how koncevik suffered the fatal wound that resulted
in his death. Fact: Dante was armed with lethal weapons when he led the
charge and attacked the Black Cobra Hall. During the "melee", Dante
himself COULD HAVE STRUCK THE FATAL BLOW...to Koncevik. In Bob Cooley's
book, it is obvious that Dante could turn against his "friends" at the
drop of a hat. He did it to Cooley, why not to Kooncevik? Esepcially
given the opportunity within a "mass of confusion".
Consider all the "mea culpas" by Dante afterwards and HIS ACCUSATIONS
BLAMING THE BLACK COBRA HALL MEMBERS FOR THE DEATH OF KONCEVIK. Dante
was involved with the Chicago Mob, owned Porn Shops, was an
uncontrollable "loose cannon", was fired from the USKA. When you look
at the entire picture and consider all of the facts, Dante could very
well have been the one to strike the fatal blow to Koncevik!
That is why the police reports are so confusing> Why the courts
could not resolve the matter, and why Webb can't get to the truth. The
only logical conclusion is that Koncevik was killed by Dante. And used
a typical "mob tactic" of setting his "best friend up", to take the
fall, and cover his guilt.
Now Webb. Have you considered that possibility? Or are you so enamored
with the myth of Count Dante, that you fail to see beyond the comic
book "anti-hero" fantasy that Dante created for himself, that you are
blind to the one possibility that explains the mystery after all. Could
Dante have killed Koncevik? Absolutely! He had no scruples or honor,
could not honor his vows to his masters, and was totally ambitious and
corrupt. I rest my case!!!
Warren is a deceiver. He has allegedly committed id theft, cre3dit card
fraud, is a "dead beat dad" of several children with several unwed
mothers, all of these are potential federal crimes. He has stolen from
his students. He is too blame for his actions. No one else!!!
Dante created the character of the "World's Deadliest Fighter", now if
Koncevik had surpassed him in skill and fighting ability, this
reputation would no longer be valid. Koncevik was the best fighterin
the USA at the time. Dante surely felt threatened by the emergence of
his top student as the best in the USA. Would Koncevik be a rival for
the title of "World's Deadliest Man"? Absolutely!
Dante was a classic subject in Dissociative Identity Disorder (a
"multiple"). He was a "hairdresser", mob "wannabe", "World's
deadliest", aspiring "opera singer", "kung fu master", porn shop owner;
a classic DIO/Multiple, who could turn on/off within an instant any of
these "identities". Could one of those "Identities" feel threatened
enough by Koncevik to kill him? Absolutely!!!
Warren, operates the same way as Dante did. And most likely suffers frm
the same DISORDER. He's a self appointed Master, a religious Minister,
Dead Beat Dad, alleged rip off of his students, resorts to "carney
trix" and presents these as true qi gong, etc.. A classic DIO/Multiple.
Koncevik was truly a nemsis to Dante. Dante admired the man, yet had
deep envy towards him. He set Koncevik up. It was a pre-meditated plan
HIT on Koncevik.
All of the old BDFS men know this. But they have let this truth be
buried with Dante and Koncevik. Floyd is an idiot to DIG up "bones that
had beefs"
Floyd's film is his way to gain entry to the inner-circle of BDFS. Floyd knows this. He of course will DENY this OPENLY.
Floyd is being sued by the BDFS for alleged copyright infringement. So
yes... he will dent it because it isn't true. The only supposed faction
of the BDFS that likes Floyd is the one in S. Africa that was once
headed by Asshida Kim... and they are NOT the real BDFS but are also on
schedule to be sued.
I deny this OPENLY.You want to know what I be bout, email me or call my
ass. I am sick of both you Dragons, Black and Green being asses on the
internet! Man up anp speak to me face to face, man to man with this
kind of crap. I am not hiding. I am in Chicago seek me out and find out
MY TRUTH. In the end it is not about Black Green or even Dante. It is
about the rise of martial arts in America.
It was also said that Koncevik had a desire to learn the true art of
Chi Tao Chuan. It was said that he had befriended a higher rank who
would "sponser" him. Dante felt threatened by this. He saw it as a
"betrayl" move.
I know that I decided to step away but one of my students sent me a
link about Shifu Vicki Jaroscak. She was trained and promoted by Warren
& others..after spending 13 years gaining it. She was a healer and
a kind soul..that considered me her son..there for the birth of my
son..and left her Tao Sash for my son as his godmother. My school is
dedicated to her and she sits on my alter of the ancients as its
matron. She died of cancer in '05.
She is the reason why I even came back to Warrens school after an
absence of years as a Shen Jen. When she got ill she asked me to cover
her class and protect the students. When she was dying in the hospital,
she made me promise to take my shifu examine to gain a voice to protect
students. When I retrieved her sash from her mother..I placed it on the
altar and it left with me when I departed. It sits in my home on my
personal altar to the ancients.
Lastly, I have heard from my temple brother Shifu..that Warren claimed
that she had no right to the sash since she didnt 'pay' for it. Warren
if you are wondering why we shifus have such contempt for you..it was
that statement to my brother shifu...she is deceased and you make
comments like that. The sad part is that Vicki to her end prayed for
you to become 'right'.
Incredible: i would have never known a woman would have ascended to the
rank of white sash! The old temples were "boys clubs". Congrats to late
Shifu Vicki!
As long as I teach..something..there will be a place for another female
shifu. I know that our Chi Tao is known as unorthodox..it is all the
choice we had even after he proved himself to be immoral. I was blessed
to learn internal from Zhang Sifu when I was angry & lost. To be
honest even the Chi Tao he taught over the last 5-6 years..seems alien
to us looking at it from before. But such is the path..and I will walk
until Heaven says 'no more'. Chi Tao has saved my life. Period.
I am beginning 2 wonder if Shifu Vicki knew of Warren's sickness! You
never know! Did Warren attend her funeral? Did Warren attempt to heal
her/ his student?
I wont comment any further on Shifu Vicki. I just wanted to honor her
memory and clarify who she was. She is to be resected. She was a
herbalist and alternative healer. She taught me to think clearly and
humbly...to control my lower dragon. Just know that she would probably
cry over all of this right now.I hope she forgives me for breaking my
promise not to fight openly with Warren for the sake of the students.
Vicki..but as you are probably watching I have little choice for the
sake of the Art.
Back in the day: Warren would have his SASH and BANNER burned! Warren
obviously was not trained in the compassion aspect of being a guardian
for his "dragons"....
@Shentaoba. You are honorable! When you were his student, how was
Warren at doing forms? Did he show "flow"? Did he stress the aspect of
doing forms slow instead of fast? Did he explain the true internal chi
gung trait of Chi Tao Chuan?
Actually after I returned to look after Vicki and such..I dont think
that either shifu's got 3 lessons in a 1 1/2 year..I was much to busy
correcting the attitudes and respect levels for the Kwoon in general. I
once was sweeping outside as a Shen Jen and a student walked up and
WATCHED me do it. In my day as a student, the elders were afforded true
respect. I shared internal with a select few at first. Since Warren
would claim it wasn't TRUE internal, I stopped teaching it there after
that.
@John...you have very interesting Black Dragon Society video clips. Are you working on this film project with Floyd Webb?
I support and plan to buy a copy of the film when it's finished, but
no, I am not working with Floyd in any way. I'm just a civilian who
received an honorary rank from the BDFS (for helping promote them in
the past) and am excited to see a Dante Documentary being made.
How does a Sifu of this art die of cancer? How many more of Warren's
students got cancer? How many other people were made "sick" trying to
protect people from Warren?
I was diagnosed with medullarblastoma and was very ill for nearly 2
years. Had a cane and such...however, my internal teacher and his
granddaughter help heal me...as well as western techniques. The Nei
Gong helped my immuno response stay strong and the Chi Tao kept my
adrenal system in line during the treatments. Shifu Vicki wanted to
pass and sought little western medicine.
@molo...cancer is primarily caused by STRESS and DISTRESS. My thoughts:
Warren created high levels of stress among the ranks. And Vicki
absorbed it. Warren should have given her herbs; massages; and
accupunture!
It is obvious that Warren does not know internal chi gung. In the footage, he does not know how to inhale and exhale.
It is a well known fact that when utilizing the 'Iron Palm'
method...once should nver raist the hand above the heart..due to
potential damage to the heart muscle and triple warmer (pericardium).
Honestly, Warren said this before..i was suprised he did that. I just
don't know where he is today from 10-11 yrs ago..when others masters
would visit and keep him in due bounds..
Warren should break the brick in either Warrior's Sitting Posture, Northern Lung Bu, or Infinity Posture.
I am waaay older than most you here. In Chi Tao you break either 3
ways: Wu Tao; Chi Hui Tao; or Ho Tao. Those are the cornerstones of the
Art. This is why the older dragons stay "hidden".
The way we broke was: no drawing back several times like in the
footage. The minute you lifted your hand, you "committed" to the break!
Drawing back several times indicates that you are UNSURE. Doing that in
combat will get you killed!
Another thing was to do the flurries slowly. The flurries coupled with
Chi Gung breathing is powerful. It built power! The flurries done fast
created speed and stamina!
To adepts: learn the secret "water" Iron Palm method! learn the secret
"herbs in sand" Iron Palm method! This is what made the Green Dragon
Society so unique. This is why you could see an out-of-shape Chi Tao
man, yet he could express horrific power from his fist or palm! This is
a living FACT!
The Final Scenario: Dante is envious and afraid of Koncevik's skill and
popularity within the BDFS. He plots to invade the GDS/BCH, having
Koncevik leading the attack. Dante's "mole" gives him the layout of the
BC Hall. Dante pumps up Koncevik prior to the attack, tells him "your
the best, you carry the honor of the BDFS, you must not fail, do not
retreat, no matter what!."
Final Scenario (cont'd) When they attack the BCH, Koncevik charges in,
and quickly takes control of the floor, beating the crap out of most of
the neophytes there. He penetrates into the inner chamber and engages a
high rank in combat and is seriously wounded in the abdomen. As he runs
out to escape, Dante or the "Mole" finish him off with a mortal wound.
So if this is the accepted scenario of the GDFS why not come forward
and reveal the truth and be done with it. End of story. GDFS redeemed
for being accused of something they were not responsible for? Or is it
all wishful thinking and fantasy. Why do people always use anonymity to
say things online they would never say in person.
Final Scenario, Fin: Dante then runs into the business office and hides
under a desk till the police arrive. Koncevik is dead. Dante blames the
GDS/BC and maintains control over the BDFS business empire. He sets up
his disciple to die, in order to protect his business interests and
public personna. he later dies a mysterious death himself, due to
"unknown causes".
How silly you are being. Dante DID NOT hide under any desk. That is all
stupid old rumor. He was arrested by the police on the sidewalk outside
the GDS school... newspaper and police reports prove that. The guy is
already dead. Let him at least rest with whatever honor he had instead
of spreading untruths now over 3 decades later.
Why is it you guys who have done no research, like to sit in the dark
anonymity of the Internet and spin theories on events 37 years ago when
you PROBABLY were not even born then.
I have spoken to people from both sides of the fight now. No one who was there ever put this theory forth. If Dante did it why keep it secret 37 years. Why all this fear over a dead man???
I have spoken to people from both sides of the fight now. No one who was there ever put this theory forth. If Dante did it why keep it secret 37 years. Why all this fear over a dead man???
How does one get cancer? If you do internal training wrong...YOU WILL
GET SICK! Cancers, leukemia, kidney/heart problems, arthrtitis, can all
be caused by incorrect training in the internal methods of toughening.
Warren does not know true internal teachings, ergo his students are in
danger of getting serious illnesses. Cease all methods u may have
learned from him!
Has anyone considered that maybe Warren is the cause of the cancer for
more than stress reasons. Along with that, Warren sent his 'chi' to
help this woman be lifted in the video. Does anyone else notice her
holding her back after the commercial break? She is slouched over.
Could this be a direct result of him sending his chi... showing what
his chi does to others...
To johpartricio> POLICE REPORTS?!?! HA-HA-HA...a CPD report is a
joke. The Cpd is the most corrupt law enforcement agency in the USA.
The cpd has had known mob hitmen, been convicted of providing
protection to drug dealers, have tortured innocent men into admitting
to commiting crimes, and killed innocent civilians.
Eye witnesses saw Dante hiding under a desk. I would rely more on the
eyewitness reports than the cpd report. Back then, Chicago reporters
were just as corrupt as the cops. Look at Conrad Black and his
conviction for ripping off the Sun Times. In Chicago, corruption has
always been and still is KING!!!
Who are the eyewitnesses? Green Dragons who despised and wanted to
embarrass Dante I'm sure. One of the Green Dragons that Floyd
interviewed claims to have dislocated both of Dante's shoulders in that
same fight too! As corrupt as they may be, why in the world would
police lie about where Dante was when they found him??? What would they
have to gain by that VS what would the eyewitnesses have to gain by
making Dante look bad?
By the way, Dante is getting exactly what he wanted. He compared
himself to Musashi. Well, Dante is remembered for everything that he
has done. Notorious actions lend themselves to being remembered for
them. look at Al Capone! Dante is a part fo the infamous Chicago
history, and will be remembered the way he wanted...as a thug, hipster,
mob wannabe, and for causing the death of his disciple!
Money!! cpd are always on the take...and their cheap too. Wouldn't have
cost Dante much to have the police report "doctored" so that his image
as the "world's deadliest" would not be endangered by the facts! Don't
know about Dante having his shoulders dislocated. Never heard that,
I did hear about his hiding under a desk from what I consider to be a
solid source, a few days after the fight took place. You bdfs guys are
having a hard time accepting the fact that when it was "crunch time",
Dante "choked". It's his word against the multiple "eyewitnesses".
Dante loses!
Well we BDFS people don't believe much that the GDS has to say about
Dante, but this is America, believe what you want. Personally, even IF
the desk story were true I couldn't blame Dante for hiding. There was a
dead guy in the next room... I'd hide from the cops too!!! But in the
end the story isn't true so it doesn't matter.
Dante was all bluff and bluster. Sure, he could handle non-trained
"civilians", but when it came down to confronting real Gung Fu, he was
"dust in the wind". He choked! he Hid! Or...he had his top disciple set
up! Anyway you look at it...Dante was a "paper tiger"! LOSER!
Hey there is another HOAX: type "martial arts death touch" he tried to fool FOX tv media. But they pulled his card. HAHAHA
Checkout this clip: "Kiai Master VS MMA"
This old CHI guy had everyone fooled. At the end, you'll see if his CHI is real in real combat. HAHAHAHA
This old CHI guy had everyone fooled. At the end, you'll see if his CHI is real in real combat. HAHAHAHA
Remember, Dante had a lot of "friends" on the cpd. That's how he was
referred to the crooked mob lawyer Bob Cooley. He laid 5k cash on
Cooley right away. So Dante was used to carrying lots of cash (porn
shops, etc) and laying it down to get things done ...the chicago Way.
Actually I heard Dante was referred to Cooley through his mob
connections. And you saying that he paid cops to lie and say he was on
the sidewalk instead of under a desk is ridiculous! If he was going to
pay the cops to lie why not just pay them to say he wasn't on the scene
at all and had nothing to do with the fight?
I am so tired of seeing this crap. I studied with Warren years ago. Now
I am brave enuff to say who I am: Exxxx Hxxxxxxx []
Now I told everyone that Warren was on bullshit: I gave dude the keys
to his school. He knows that! And Warren screwed me in the end. I hope
he reads my comment!
So here's the real story. Webb and the new bdfs expect to make big
bucks if their movie ever is released. BUT, Dante can't come across as
a loser, paper tiger type, so they have to continue to portray Dante as
an "anti-hero". So they have to make the bch/gds to be the bad guys.
After all, they are making a film, and no doubt, expect to sell a lot
of merchandise as part of their project. So..who has an interest to
protect?? Not the gds!
The BDFS is not involved with or making any money off this film
whatsoever. As I previously said, the BDFS is suing Webb to stop the
film! As for making the GDS look like the "bad guys" that is wrong too.
Webb has interviewed several of the old members just to get their side
of the story. He is being very neutral in his portrayal of Dante. By
the way, none of the GDF that he has interviewed said anything about
Dante hiding under a desk either.
@Johnpatricio...I saw ur channel. Very interesting clip on Dante. I am
talking about the one you edited that was in sepia/ brown.
Yeah, I love that vid. Thanks for noticing it. I'm very seriously
considering going into business making vids like that for anyone that
wants me too. If anyone here wants to throw me some work I'm willing to
jump in. I'm moving right now so it will have to wait about a month
though.
No one has a dime involved in this movie but me and one other person
and he is NOT connected to the bdfs. Both the green and the black
dragons think too highly of themselves in this story. The film is a
SOCIAL HISTORY. Dante is the center of a film about martial ares in
America. It is about his rise as a global underground pop culture icon
for better or worse. Will I solve anything, who knows. April 23 1970
was a messed up situation, PERIOD!
Gerald did INTRODUCE me to some good things. But shame on the man who
will DISHONOR your "right hand" man. Everyone thought I was in ERR back
in 1994 when I said Warren had used me.
Warren if you read this: contact me. I am grown man now. If you find
this too ruff, well... we can go to the "circle": in the street. I can
take an ass whuppin. But I can also FUCK FACES UP.
I am pissed off because it all started with me. I gave u the American
Express Card. I gave you the the lease in my name to the Devon school.
It shld have stopped with me.
My cell is blowin' up coz I got students upset coz I am upset. But if u dont stand up 4 somethin u will fall 4 anything.
See I will say this: at this point Warren can deny he did that 2 me. It
is cool. But I will not "cow" down to any man. Not now. not never!
The late Dan Drake healed me of my wounds. That was a real teacher!
The late Dan Drake healed me of my wounds. That was a real teacher!
To my students: stop blowin my cell up! I am cool. I am just letting
the TIGER defend the SHRINE! I gotta put facts up! Coz in the beginning
it was me and Black Cobra Angelo that started his empire! Damn Right!
When hear how ppl have been hurt, it hurts me.
So to all the GDS ppl out there who are mad at me: PHUCK U! I got balls! And I got fists! And I ain't afraid to say a damn THANG! Real Talk from real chi jen!
So to all the GDS ppl out there who are mad at me: PHUCK U! I got balls! And I got fists! And I ain't afraid to say a damn THANG! Real Talk from real chi jen!
Warren all I wanted to know was WHY did you put that PAIN on me? Dude,
we was TIGHT! You know it! Man I would have DIED for you! Give me an
apology man! In person. If u gotta kick my ass 4 being rude, Do it!
Then apologize!
Another thang:Did Sheng Jen Tyrone tell you I came by back. I gave him
my number. I know he gave you the message. Did you avoid me? Man up
with me, Warren. Real talk from a real chi jen.
U call me at this number 773 555-5555 . U can ask for me. Exxxx
Hxxxxxxxx See I can be bold. I got the LORD and ANGELS on my side.
So aint nuthin gonna happen to me or my family or my students. Not one
DAMN THANG! Dig that!
2 my stuents: learn this "never lie or hurt the ones that u teach"
never do that. and if u do wrong, man up and admit that shit! we all
are human. Saying that u apologize will always mend the broken gate!
It shld have never gotten to this POINT@ Warren. But when u slick and
slide, everythang gets GREASY. I know ur reading this! So don't act
BRAND NEW with this!
Warren has been an outcast/rogue since 1985. His last rank was that of
wu chi jen. Due to offenses committed against the orthodox line of Chi
Tao Chuan, he was expelled, His sash and banners were burned, and he
was excommunicated from the Brotherhood. The orthodox line chooses to
remain in the shadows.Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do
not know. The empty barrel makes the loudest noise.
WOW!!! Man the action on this blog is hot!! QLK is one bad mo fo!!!
"CEASE"!!! Hell eaah!! Warren is under the microscope now. His day of
reckoning can't be that far off!!
Seems like the black dragons have been exposed as well. "Dere's gold in dem dar Dante hills". So, ubi es mea?? Where's my cut?
Seems like the black dragons have been exposed as well. "Dere's gold in dem dar Dante hills". So, ubi es mea?? Where's my cut?
This is the best darn reality show on the You Tube. I got my big Texas
plate of Happy Holiday dinner and a big cup of soda. It gets
better...lol
@redcheetah: calm down, son. Warren, whoever you are talk with all
these men. There are repressed feelings erupting. @Red...you stay cool.
I just sent you two private messages. Transcend your past pains.
I am calm >>>Thuggee. It has just been over 12 years of being
quiet. All I want is for the style to thrive. I apologize for offending
the viewers. But to keep seeing certain comments, I got a major
FLASHBACK of being kicked out coz ppl THOUGHT I had LIED on master
Warren. When I know I was the victim
To QLK: you know me. And I had no idea you were here. But this is why I
say I am not with any society. just an "independent". And I apologize
for offending you and "teacher".
To Warren: I apologize for getting "jazzy" in the mouth. But man I have
been thru so much with my credit being jacked up. All I am saying it
wasn't fair to make me a victim.
Redcheeth Happy Holidays how are you ChiJen. 4 or a man to say he's
sorry he must first know he is wrong I don't Warren understand that
fact. but your point is well taken now take a deep breath and exhale
all the neg Chi the flash back gave u and move on and contiune to shine
your light 4 other to see.
To DaoYin: I don't know you. But thanks 4 the pvt message. All of words
were wise & true, bro. So please forgive me for offending you and
"your circle".
@DaoYin...well I admit I was wrong to get "jazzy", but I am wiser from
that private message you sent me. There was healing in that message,
brother. Thanks
To my students: All is well and All is one! Please read the last public
comment from Daoyin. That's real talk. All of us should meditate on
what he keystroked.
Hot doggit! DaoYin I know u! I got the pvt message. I wont reveal u on
this board. But my mind was too clouded to even know that was u. Happy
Holidays , Bro!
Well u sure is a SHIFU! U taught me well 2night @ DaoYin. I spoke with
ShenTaoBa last night. He is in good spirits! He told me who BlackCrane
was... wow...wow...wow
@DaoYin..guess what? I got an old video of you as a Green sash working
on forms with Eric Nunez. Classic shit, bro! It was like summer 1994 or
1995.
Man shoot ... I aint heard from Angelo since 1993! I would love to say
him. And what a Black Cobra he was! That doggone Angelo!
Black Crane doesn't live in Chicago? I wish I knew where Eric was? Now
a cat who I need to see his Carlos the Golden Leopard. And big Lupe
too! Those were golden moments! Hell yeah!
@John..what type of camcorder do you shoot on? Or do you just do edit
work? I tell u that sepia/ brown look was very nice. Made the footage
look like a 1930's movie.
So far all I have done is editing work of pre-existing material. That
particular vid was made using just copies from a copy machine. You can
see the stuff I used at my site "1bdfs" on yahoo groups in the sports
category. I also made some nice T-shirts.
Checkout this clip: "Kiai Master VS MMA"
This old CHI guy had everyone fooled. At the end, you'll see if his CHI is real in real combat.
This old CHI guy had everyone fooled. At the end, you'll see if his CHI is real in real combat.
The question is: After the master got his ass kicked how did he explain
that to his students? That is a most humbling video clip if I ever saw
one.
I trained in some boxing, wrestling and Judo when I was a teen, but
never really earned any rank. My Judo teacher was a neighbor with a
black belt. As for Floyd, I know he did train in MA at one time, but I
am not sure what kind or what rank he made.
Some prayer with some faith; a dash of herbs; maybe some accupuncture;
and some good Chi Gung can reverse that "illness". I am saying that
whatever illness a man has can be reversed.
Don't give the illness "power" by saying you have a "bad case". Words
can create the existance of a thing. Did you know that a doctor's words
give a man a disease. You feel pain, but he will "define" it with a
disease.
Sounds like a less intimidating cure than the daily needle I'm going to
start taking in January. Right now though I'm going to worry about
moving so I don't end up homeless. You should check out my yahoo group.
I have a forum that we can talk better at than here. You seem like a
cool dude... especially since you like my vid, lol :)
Start meditating and visualizing the "illness" fading out. Use a
placebo like add lemon to ur water. And believe that the lemon water is
the "cure" The mind is truly more powerful than you can imagine!
Take the western medicine too! But use your mind John. I did this when
I was stricken with 2 bouts of double pneumonia. The docs said I was
gonna die. But I am here! I will check out ur forum.
Well I can try the positive thinking, but the problem is I also have
depression so that thinking can only go so far, lol. I'll try though.
The right side of my body is pretty much paralyzed so I think I can
only go so far with positive thinking.
If u go far enough, you will hit a wall. Relax. Look at the wall. Then
go around it, over it, under it, or through it. You did the first step:
you said, " I will try". That is very positive, John!
Anyone who wants to know what my motivations are for making this film
can call me. All this speculation can be brought to an end by talking
to me first hand. Why guess at it. I have no hidden agenda. I am not
the one hiding. I am always available to talk. My number is on my
website. As far as I am concerned there are NO GOOD GUYS in this story.
37 years later no one wants it resolved,that is truly sad.
Webb, now you say your film is about martial arts in ametrica! VERY
INTERESTING! Yet on your blog u keep saying how people keep telling u
to make a film about others who r more deserving of recognition, and u
just blow them off. Ur focus is Dante and his celebrity, it's never
been about martial arts in America. Perhaps a side bar is martial arts
in Chicago. But don't try to sell me that u have a higher purpose crap!
So, u have been "investigating" this story for one year. Some f us have
been following it for 37 years. Don't u think "we" may have soem
sources and info that u do not? It's laid out in the "scenario". Mind
u, it's only a "scenario" U R supposed to be a filmmaker, then u should
understand the meaning of the word "scenario". I never presented that
"scenario" as fact, only as speculation. Still one other reader of this
blog/forum, confirmed the hypothesis of my scenario. BINGO!
READY2BLOODMATCH WROTE THIS: "Koncevik was truly a nemsis to Dante.
Dante admired the man, yet had deep envy towards him. He set Koncevik
up. It was a pre-meditated plan HIT on Koncevik." I do not know this
source, but my scenario gets a boost from this comment. Someone else
out there has critical thinking skills.
When I have stated facts, I call them facts. Now, the fact is, that u
do not have the entire story of what took place at the bch/gds. Ur
sources are at best "dubious" especially if they claim to be gds. Now
don't go having a "hissy fit" because ur story line (the official bdfs
line) is being challenged. Nobody wanted to bring this out in the open.
Just u and ur bdfs pals.
Again, u r the one who has been pushing the buttons, trying to find out
what happened at the bch/gds. U..no on else. So don't be getting all
self righteous about the rest of us staying in the shadows. U R the one
with a film project...not us. Now granted the info presented here
throws ur story "up for grabs". It's back to the drawing board time
kiddo.
All of ur sources about what happened that day in 1970 are "dubious".
The police records, the news articles, the gds "sources": (why don't
they make themselves publicly known?) and especially ur bdfs sources. U
may have a film, but U do not have the facts. So cut the crap, no one
is going to feel sorry for u. Cry all u want. U started this dynamic,
now live with it.
The fact is, Webb and the bdfs guys still idoliza Dante and can't see
him for what he truly was...a thug. What about that woman who wrote on
ur forum that when she was a little girl, how Dante went to her house
and muscled her father. Scared the be-jezuz out of her.
No u guys can't get over the comic book anti-hero image. U place him on
a pedeswtal, as though u were still 12 years old. Yeeah, he hanged on
rush street, had fine women, lots of cash. I know a lot of pimps who
have the same flah/bling. So what's the difference between them and
Dante? ZERO!!!!
All these people are in the film I am making. I have done a through
investigation of this subject. Mas Tamura is a key figure in the film
as well as JUdo Gene LaBell's adventures hohboing to Chicago on
weekends to train with him. You want to know what I am doing? Ask me
face to face!
U see Webb, and all u bdfs guys, U do ahve an agenda. It's keeping
alive the "hype" about Dante. U keep on pushing the bs that he was a
co-founder of the USKA for instance. Webb, U have been told by no less
an authority than the daughter of G.M Robert Trias, that this is not
true...but u still promote that b.s.
jaraboga, you can either call me at 708-704-1482 get this discussion
off YouTube or just hide behing the keyboard. Why are youy hiding, I
have already sat and had dinner with other Green Dragons so there is no
fear on my part. What are you afraid of? If you got something to say to
me about what I am doing let's do it face to face with a camera.
So, in spite of being told by the highest authority that Dante was not
a co-founder of the USKA, u still persist in promoting that bull jive!
Why? In my eyes u have no credibility as a researcher. U only want to
promote what makes ur subject matter look more attractive to the
general viewing public.
U want dante to be the "co-founder" of the USKA, so that makes him more
important in ur storyline, as one of the "founders of american karate".
again...TORO FECES!!! So quit ur moaning and groaning. U started on
this path, now u have to contend with the realities of what u started.
But u would prefer "denial" than confront what is the truth...and/or a
very real "possibility".
Jaraboogie, you have an opportunity to set the record straight, yet all
of you guys hide behind your keyboards. You can meet with me and we can
talk about it. You want to THINK I am a bdfs guy, that is YOUR mistake.
You either have something real to contribute to this story or you
don't. You are comign off just like that Black Dragon guy Creeden,
using the Internet as a delayed reaction soapbox. Do you even have any
facts you can prove???
Dude I am rapidly coming to the conclusion you are full of crap. Like I
said, you got something to say to me about the film, do it FACE TO FACE
in front of the camera. You only discredit yourself sitting safely
behind the keyboard away from REAL WORLD reality of face to face
communication.
The Way of the Martial Arts is to confront reality "head on". Not to
try and distort reality. But many who enter atraining hall, when they
realize what they have gotten into, rather than withdraw, attempt to
make the training conform to them, as opposed to allowing themselves to
be transformed by the training. U have entered into the the halls of
the martial arts. U R the one who must be transformed. Ur story as it
is....sucks!!!
Either get the facts straight, or admit that u do not have them, and
move on. It is like performing a classical kata. Do it right. But many
would prefer to change the kata so that they can make it easier to
perform. It no longer is the same kata. It is a hybrid and has lost
it's essence as a martial art. Will u do the same. Will u perfect the
kata, or corrupt it? It's ur call.
These types of demos are only meant to impress the ignorant. They are
only demonstrations of the principles of physics, NOT martial arts. It
is hard to believe there are still so-called martial artists that use
these side-show stunts as a demonstration of their "skill". Just
another group of charlatns.
Webb, ur film project is entitled, "The Search for Count Dante". That
means that u r trying to discover unknown aspects of Dante's life. Or,
u have a pre-concieved notion of Dante and u just want to entice the
public with the title. What u appear 2 be really searching for is "who
dun it?"Now, a good detective is going to follow all the leads, not
just the official story line.
You have no idea what it means. You either have information to
contribute to the story to make it better or you don't. You make big
claims but when it is time for the real proof of what you say, you have
no interest in presenting facts, just scenarios.
I didn't say Chicago cops were straight. I said it would be absolutely
ridiculous for them to lie about where Dante was located when they
arrived. If Dante was going to pay cops to lie about his location, I
think he would have paid them to say he was at home with an alibi, not
standing on the sidewalk outside the GDS school. Makes sense to me!
"U don't have all the info/possibilities." Well then contact him and
put him on the right track instead of complaining about it! As far as
"sticking to the BDFS line", that's not true either. Floyd is doing
real research and is putting the facts he finds in the film no matter
how good or bad it makes the BDFS look. Did I mention the BDFS is suing
him because of this film?
Webb. U r in denial. U can't cut it. All that drama...for what? Because
u don't do ur homework man. GOTCHA!!! U R in too much of a hurry to get
ur story out, and u ignore the real facts when presented to u. That's
ur problem man...not mine. Can't take the heat, leave the kitchen.
I have contributed, freely and openly. I have told u that Dante was not
a "co-founder" of the USKA, based on the highest authority. U continue
to ignore that fact. I have shared with u freely about my sources
telling me that Dante hid under a desk. I have shared with u my
"scenario". All free of charge and in the open discussion on youtube. I
prefer it this way. Anonymity works best 4 me. Besides, I have no stake
in ur project, I am only interested in the facts. R U?
JaraBoogie, you clearly have nothing of substance to say. I am in
Chicago, you want to show me evidence of your FACTS or state them on
film I am available. Otherwise all you doing is selling woof tickets
with no value.
ExBlackDragon what marker am I off of? Explain it to me please? Are all you guys Paper Dragons or what?
Dante had a big problem if any of his students seem like they had
better skills. it tear at the guy's ego. this is why i left too. he
taught how to do a side kick and axe kick
he said to practice a kick a thousand times. of course i did not kick
1,000x each day, but in a month i did. my kicks were crisp. he hated
that. he told me that my "technique" was off. but he taught me!?!
Floyd you never met John Keehan. The man was a genius and a egoist. He
was karate's version of sean combs/ puff daddy. The lights of the world
were to glow and shine on him. This is why he had the pornshop,
hairshop, etc. He even wanted to go into politics!?!
I meet Keehan when I was 11 years old at the 2nd World's Karate
Championship at the Chicago Coliseum. I never took lessons from him, I
studied with Hamza Gregory Jaco and others. I saw him and spoke with
him several other times probably last time in 1969 in the street. I was
not buddies with him. I know very well what he was.
You know John Keehan was just like Warren: a charmer. Some ppl loved
him. Others despised him. Yet all marveled at how he got away with
everything. he and warren share the same mindsets. amazing, huh?
I'm gonna call u JP for short: CHICAGO COPS LIE ALL THE TIME!!! U some
kind of cherry? "He had in his hand what appeared 2 be a gun." No it
was a cell phone, u wasted him/her anyway. Ridiculous that CPD would
lie? Dude u r from Oz!!! Come on, they move bodies all the time, 2 get
their stories str8. Making a minor adjustment in a report is nothing,
especially for some fast cash!
If all u r interested in doing is preserving the "heroic" image of
Keeha, fine, continue to be deluded. U all have obviously been aware of
the "rumor" that He hid under a desk for some time, but u have either
dismissed it, or haven't searched enough to confirm it. Or u prefer
that story for ur movie.
Ok, here's more for U: Koncevik was kicking everybody's ass at the
bch/gds. He enagaged their number 2 top fighter, number 1 was not
there: He was wiping the floor with number 2, so bad, that after the
fight, he had to be taken to the hospital and treated for shock. That's
right Koncevik damn near killed the number 2 top fighter of the
bch/gds.
I am gonna say that you are full of shit. How bout that. You have no
proof. This is not the forum for this conversation. You show your
ignorance and lack of credibility. You have nothing to contribute but
crap.
jaraboga...this is QLK... you are to CEASE and DESIST...from making any
further comments on this subject. Do you understand?
Honestly, after reading most of that crap all I can say is that thuis
stuff is right out of a comic book.....and a bad one at that.
I'm waiting to see how johnpatricio and floyd respond to this last
submittal from jaraboga. What do they have to say? if they don't
repond, then I think they may have stumbled across the
"unexpected"....OUCH!! Man, that QLK must be some powerful bad ass mo
fo!!
I respond by saying "where's the proof or evidence?" I tend not to
believe what I hear on the Internet unless it comes from a source that
"I" know is dependable. I don't know any of you!
no offense..but do not instigate. do not use QLK as means of
mockery...please... i am asking you to chill out. You can speak of my
name but please don't speak on QLK. Certain stuff you are out of your
league. real talk
Well Floyd met John Keehan at 11yrs. I met him as a man. John could
care less about a kid. Jara is on to something: John perhaps did kill
Koncevik. John was envious of anyone who had better skill than him.
jaraboogie has no proof. If he does he should put it to Konsevic's
surviving relative who I am in touch with. Seems like the Green Dragons
are laying ground work to avoid any possible impending civil suit. He
is blowing smoke.
Dante's dream was to be like Mas Oyama in regards to having a legion of
people who see him as a god. If Dante wld have lived, he wld have
karate as popular as mondaynite football. but he wld have been like a
"don king". I knew the man quite well. Floyd u never knew him.
Yes, but meeting someone is still enough reason to give a filmmaker the
inspiration to make a movie about them. Who said you had to know or be
friends with someone to make a movie about them?
Well it takes ppl like QLK to keep order. So there is a season for
everything. QLK is doing his duty as sergeant of arms. LOL.
Floyd u need 2 talk with the Preston Baker; Larry Tankson; Shorty
Mills; Professor Peacock; and to old ppl from Jaco's Tornado school. I
mean the old heads. These guys knew how lowdown John Dante Keehan could
be.
Well, seems like floyd and johnpatricio have disappeared. What's up
with that? They sure made a lot of noise against jaraboga and the
comments made here on this forum. Where are they at now? Did jaraboga
hit the mark? Why are floyd and johnpatricio silent now?
No need for me to say anything unless someone brings up something that
needs a response. As for Jaraboga he doesn't need any more responses
right now, because all has put forward is stories. Floyd interviewed
Green Dragons who were their that night. He knows the truth from an
actual witnesses and Jaraboga's stories don't match with theirs... so
there is no need for me to take anything he says seriously.
Disappeared? I have a life away from the Internet. My interviews are
essentially done. I published a list of the people I have interviewed
and will interview already. If you looked at my website you would see
that Preston BAker is one of the first people I talked to. I am not
playing a game-online making false claims.
I have questions. I've been following this interesting interchange.
Seems like what happened to Jim Koncevik is well covered. But, where
was Dante during the entire fight? Allrecords seem to indicate that
other than the first blow that was thrown by Dante, he had no presence
in this struggle at all.
As far as I can tell, Dante just disappeared from this fight after throwing the first blow.
And his other students (companions) what happened to them? They ran away? That would have left Dante alone to fight off the hordes of green dragons. Why was he not seriously wounded as was Jim Koncevik?
And his other students (companions) what happened to them? They ran away? That would have left Dante alone to fight off the hordes of green dragons. Why was he not seriously wounded as was Jim Koncevik?
Dante wasn't wounded as bad as Koncevik, because nobody thrust a spear
into him like they did to Koncevik is the only reason I can figure.
According to Dante's account he and koncevik were the only two to stay
after the fighting began. The 3 other guys that were with him ran off.
But I only know Dante's version so I guess I will have to wait until
Floyd's film is done to hear the rest of the details he has researched.
From what I have heard about Floyd's interviews with the Green Dragons
that there that night Dante did NOT hide under a desk. If he would've
done that he would've made himself an easy target to get a beating.
It would seem that Dante abandoned Jim Koncevik to his own fate. This
event reminds me of the movie RASHOMON.Different "sources" retell an
event, a crime that takes place, from different points of view. Each
story teller tries to make their role seem glorious and important. The
last one reveals that all were cowards and criminals.
I would suggest to Mr. Webb, that he does not have all the facts, nor
the entire picture of what occurred the day Jim Koncevik died. And that
instead of trying to portray this unbfortunate incident from one or two
points of view, that he learn from Kurosawa, and portray it from all
angles, including the most distasteful ones.
It would seem that jaraboga (mr./ms./mrs.) has given you an excellent
opportunity to explore this story from an entirely different angle: a
rather intriguing one at that. Dante the villian, the coward and
betrayer of his best disciple. That would make a much more intense
story than the one you seem intent on projecting.
The true story would be the best to put forward. What makes you guys
think that Floyd is planning to portray Dante as some kind of hero???
He only wants to put forward the truth... that's why he interviewed
green dragons that were in that fight... to get their versions. Why are
you guys having so much of a hard time understanding that??
jaraboogie offers no proof of anything and knows nothing about what the
film is really about. There is no opportunity if no one comes forward
with evidence of anything. The Dojo War is about 10 minutes of a 90
minute film.
I am a member of the GDS. Let us reason. John Keehan was not a short
man. There are no desks in a GDS temple hall. Altars? yes. A GDS hall
is not an office
But I guess, such an artistic task would require too much talent and
imagination on your part. I mean, you should have thought of this
before I even mentioned it. Anyway, if your green dragon sources refuse
to make some kind of public record, statement, then one can also assume
that their stories lack credibility.
It will do international festivals and documentary cable channels and
go to video distribution after a short theatrical run in the ten major
markets.
There is no quandary. There is no BEST way out. I am making a
documentary. No one is ready to speak publicly or offer any testimony
on film so there is NO CREDIBILITY to these postings on YouTube. It is
all fiction and speculation.
This event happened 37 years ago. Anyone with FIRST HAND knowledge of
these events is between 50 and 70 years old. The key theoreticians show
their lack of anything firs hand. This is my last post. I have given
the GDS every opportunity to tell their side of the story on film. The
GDS has chosen NOT to do this. Let it be publicly known I tried.
The problem: there are no desks at an authentic GDS kwoon. This is
where I see issues. And if there was a desk, how did Keehan "shrink"
hisself 2 fit underneath it?
At a real GDS hall: all business matters are held with the officers in
a Warrior's Posture. This includes interviews and board meetings. If
there was a desk, perhaps it was a table. But even there is a problem:
jars of Dit Da Jow!
How many times must we repeat ourselves before the info sinks in? As
far as knee jerk responses... I disagree. My responses make perfect
sense to anyone with a brain willing to absorb them.
Floyd: at least with the dojo war scene show the possible angles of how
Koncevik could have perished. For Koncevik to have died...it took
someone who knew his WEAK spot! Koncevik was a terrific fighter! Dante
is suspect at this juncture too! Think like a DETECTIVE!
Not yet... you need to TALK with the current GRANDMASTER of the GDS.
That is the gateway to talking with the PAST GRANDMASTER Nowakunski!
Here is where the truth lays.
Very good mr. Patricio! You see, you can think "outside the box". You
are capable of some creative thought, even paranoiaic speculation. Very
god. Just when I was about to give up on you. Now, just because I
present some creative thinking on how this project could proceed, you
come back with a conspiracy theory of your own. Based on what facts Mr.
Patricio?
Based on the fact that Creeden of the BDFS also likes to use different
names and accounts. Just using past experience to draw conclusions on
this situation.
I'm out of here also. I have my own forum with rational sensible people
to have discussions with. Floyd will tell his story without your input
and you will have no room to complain. You're like Aguiar of the BDFS.
He doesn't want to tell his version of things either, but he'll be
complaining when the film doesn't tell things like he would like it
too. Who's fault will that be?
Jaraboga was silenced by QLK hours ago. It was perhaps a rank call from their "circle" or "faction".
For all reading this forum this is QLK: Chien Do Long, current Ta Shih
of the WMK, will have nothing to do with this subject or discussion.
Neither will Wu Shih!!
I'm extremely impressed. QLK is indeed a formidable being! Notice how
Mssrs. Webb and Patricio never bothered to answer my questions about
Dante's role in the unfortunate green dragon incident. Why did they not
answermy questions? yet they insist that everyone else "come clean".
HYPOCRITES!! I take my leave of this discussion.
You can read what Dante had to say about the subject on my yahoo group.
The link is in my profile. I have most of the Black Belt Mag articles
posted right there, some of them written by Dante himself. Now, once
again I am leaving. Gnight all, happy new year, and thank you QLK for
allowing me to speak my peace. Farewell.
ANALYSIS AND SUMMARY: I have reviewed all of the comments made on this
forum. A quite formidable task considering all of the various
linguistic idioms expressed. Here are my findings: 1) it seems as if Mr
Webb and Mr Particio are not "UNBIASED" in their undertaking of this
project.
2) Based on a specific comment by Mr. Webb, a lawsuit against the green
dragons by relatives of the late Jim Koncevik is IMMINENT. Now, this
explains all the intense and inflammatory rhetoric on the part of Mr.
Webb, exhorting the green dragons to come forward and state their side
of the story.
You are truly delusional. I never heard anything about any lawsuit
against the Green Dragons and certainly am not here to gather evidence!
You have a very active imagination, but you're all wrong. The ONLY
reason I came here in the 1st place was to defend Floyd's film from
your attacks. Wake up, stop dreaming!
This explains why Mr Webb is so defiant and challenging against any
counter scenario that would place the blame for the death of Jim
Koncevik "elsewhere" as speculated by jaraboga. Jaraboga raises some
very interesting points that, just as arguments alone, could possibly
create "reasonable doubt" as to who is to blame for the death of Mr.
Koncevik.
After all the written posturing by Mssrs. Webb and Patricio, it seems
that the only "source" that they have as to what transpired at the
green dragon site, are the articles and interviews from various martial
arts magazines, all from the perspective of Dante. It seems that the so
called green dragon "sources" are dubious at best.
The only source that I have is magazines, Floyd has interviewed people
not me. It's not Floyd's fault if his Green Dragon sources want to
remain hidden. Stop being so darn secretive!
Even though they insist that they have information from green dragon
sources, Webb and Patricio still "beg" for the green dragons to tell
their side of the story. This tells me, that their green dragon sources
are 1) unreliable, 2) impeachable, 3) not credible.
I don't care whether the Green Dragons are in the film or not. I am not
involved with the film. I have no sources other than Floyd himself. My
only goal is to see a film about Dante made as his story fascinates me.
IF the Green Dragons that Floyd talked to are unreliable and not
credible I guess that reflects badly on the Green Dragons. Maybe you
should try being more credible! Don't blame Floyd for your faults.
jarabogas scenario must be given serious investigation. In his comments
he points out at least two specific areas where Mr. webb is challenged
on his facts about Dante: e.g.) that Dante was not a co-founder of the
USKA. Yet Mr. Webb has not retracted that statement from his web site.
It appears that Mr. Webb's integrity is very "questionable", if he
refuses to acknowledge such details.
Instead of saying that Dante isn't a co-founder... present your
evidence to that! There are no "details" to acknowledge, only
statements from a guy on the Internet that Floyd doesn't even know. I
can say that Elvis Presley is still alive, but unless I can support
that with evidence, I assume that you will go on believing he is dead.
Now, the issue about Dante hiding under a desk. Most martial arts
schools of that era had business offices located near the front of the
school. Supplies were stored in such locations, books, magazines would
be on display, etc. Altars are never found in the "front" of a martial
arts training hall. Those altars are normally placed within the inner
sanctum of a dojo or kwoon. They are not to be viewed by the
"uninitiated".
Based on the available information and even Dante's own words: during
the attack and fight that ensued, Dante never made it beyond the front
of the green dragon hall. Ergo he was never near the altar. In, fact,
his companions abandoned him, and thus there really is only one open
version of what took place at the green dragon hall: Dante's version.
And of course, in Dante's version, he is the god guy. The green dragons
are accused of cowardice, etc. Jim koncevik is the only one to have
penetrated into the inner chambers of the green dragon hall. And as Mr
Webb and Patricio both admit, the police reports of what toook place
that day, are not conclusive and are very confusing.
I never said the police reports were "conclusive or confusing". I said
I believe them when they say that Dante was on the sidewalk and NOT
under a desk.
Jarboga is the person that is making statements without providing
evidence to support it. Any fool can make statements, but it's not up
to the unbelievers to disprove them. Disprove these statements: Elvis
is alive, John Lennon was from outer space, I have defeated 300 men in
secret death matches. Go ahead... disprove away!
According to jaraboga, the source for the debunking of the claim that
Dante WAS NOT a co-founder of the USKA, is the daughter of the late GM
Robert Trias. I know her personally, and she is the inheritor of the
Shuri Ryu tradition of her father. She was there when the USKA was
founded. She should know. If Grand Master Trias has stated that Dante
was not a cofounder of the USKA, then for me that settles it. She is an
unimpeachable source!
Yeah, but I don't believe that she said that. How can I believe that
Jaraboga is telling the truth? It's easy to say things on the Internet.
What if I said that my father was best friends with Trias. They used to
play checkers once a week. Would you believe me? Can you disprove my
claim? Stories are easy on the Internet. For example I don't believe
you know Ms. Trias. You will have to show me evidence if you want me to
believe that.
It doesn't make any sense. Koncevik is mortally wounded in this fight.
Dante, is left unscathed. Even though according to his accounts the
green dragons were armed with weapons. Was Koncevik killed by a stab
wound from a spear? What does the medical examiners report indicate as
the cause of death of Jim Koncevik?
Any claims on how Koncevik died made by Dante, are all suspect, and
should be dismissed. Based on the sketchy details of what occurred, he
should also be considered as one of the prime suspects in the death of
Jim Koncevik. The medical examiners report would state the main cause
of the death of Jim Koncevik.
Mr. webb stated (and I paraphrase) that the police reports were
inconclusive as to what occured at the green dragon hall. Finally, I
would restate for everyone, it seems to me, that Mr. webb is conducting
an "un-official" investigation into the events surrounding the death of
Jim koncevik. He claims he is making a movie about martial arts in
America. I think he is conducting a "discovery" process for new
evidence in the case, perhaps to be used in impending lawsuits against
the green dragons.
Omeijin there is no use talking to you because obviously you have a
thick head and will believe what you want no matter what... so please
let me go from here. Stop mentioning my name so I am not compelled to
return.
That is your bias, your world view, your perception of reality. All you
and Mr. webb can do is disparage any comments that are made that run
counter to your film projects script. You have no credibility! You are
a devotee of Dante, and refuse to accept any statements that run
counter to your beliefs.
I don't know you from Jack! How do I know you are telling the truth?
How do I even know that you really know her? How do I know you're not
just some nut on the Internet? Besides, I read an article from a 1964
issue of Black Belt that says that Dante and Trias both formed the
USKA. Trias was alive then and could have disputed it if it wasn't
correct but didn't. And instead of just talking about the article with
no proof that it exists, I actually have it posted in my yahoo group.
my 7th grade english teacher taught this to our class for the fun of
it... it actually worked; i'm not kidding. the sound of a pencil drop
had actually distracted us, and we accidentally dropped my friend!
Well if he wasn't a co-founder maybe Floyd I'm sure that Floyd will
make it clear in his film. Floyd is trying to make a film that is
truthful. If the facts show that Dante was lying I'm sure that will be
shown. You know Dante also claimed to be in both the Army and the
Marines... that's something I doubted, but Floyd actually got his
records and proved it was true. The truth will come out good or bad.
impressive work from JOHN PATRICIO:
google Jim Koncevik
scroll down to the 3rd entry: Says "green dragon society -bs - page 3 -no bs martial arts" Then click "cached" and scroll down til you see "black cobra hall of kung fu..." John PATRICIO posted this back in June 2005
google Jim Koncevik
scroll down to the 3rd entry: Says "green dragon society -bs - page 3 -no bs martial arts" Then click "cached" and scroll down til you see "black cobra hall of kung fu..." John PATRICIO posted this back in June 2005
Floyd Webb: find Jose Gonzales, Jerome Greenwald, Russ Berkman,Patrick
Garrison, and Gary Bennett. Those are the ones that have what ya need.
For credibility: put one or more of those GDS men in your film. Case
closed. Now we will have a great film. Floyd are you there?
As far as I know Floyd did talk to at least couple of those guys, but
they wanted to remain anonymous and not be in the film. I would love
them to be in the film if they weren't so secretive. Maybe some of
these Green Dragons here can get them to change their minds.
You're right. USKA was formed in '48. The '64 Black Belt article on my
site said only that "Trias and Dante Head the USKA". I misunderstood. I
only collect the articles on my site. I don't write or memorize them. I
was wrong in my understanding of the situation. I think Dante's
involvement may have been more to the promotion of the USKA because it
obviously wasn't to the founding. Dante was a great promoter!
But of course, you will deny this source as being false as well, will
you not? So, the point is again, that you refuse to accept any facts or
versions which run counter to your movie script. "Dante at 9 years old
was a co-founder of the USKA, master of disaster and kung fu!!!" Should
be the title of your film.
I won't deny it. Unlike knowing Trias' daughter this info was
verifiable on Wickipedia. I never deny verifiable info. Qhat makes you
think that Floyd is planning to say that Dante "formed" the USKA
anyhow? You read the "script"? I haven't and I don't know what it says,
but Floyd is doing research and I'm sure will double check all info so
he doesn't end up embarrassed by his film. Now that I think of it,
where did he say that Dante formed the USKA? I'll reread these posts to
see if I missed it.
So, cntrary to your "sources", and all your protests to the contrary,
according to the Black Belt artcile, Dante wasn't standing in front of
the green dragon hall as you insist!! he was running away from the
Black Cobra hall!! He abandoned his disciple to die alone in the street
And contrary to your sources he wasn't hiding under a desk. I don't
know if he abandoned Koncevik or was running with him. Did the article
mention that? Even if he did abandon him, I never said that Dante was a
hero. Maybe he did abandon him, I don't know and I don't care. He is
not me and I am the only person whos actions I need to worry about.
So, the party responsible for the death of Jim koncevik, is none other
than Dante himself! According to the Black Belt article, Koncevik was
stabbed with a knife...not a spear!!! It seems that you and Webb have a
distorted viewpoint of what occurred at the green dragon hall.
I never blamed the Green Dragons for starting the fight. I never said
who I thought was responsible, onlt that it was a Green Dragon who
delivered the killing blow. I am the one that said "spear, not Floyd. I
am not making this film. You arguing with me about getting facts mixed
up is pointless as far as this film goes. Why not argue with me about
the movie Star Wars or some old Clint Eastwood films? I have just as
much involvement with those as I do with Floyd's film!
Dante and the black dragons bear the responsibility of what happened
that day...NO ONE ELSE! You and Webb are trying to paint a different
story all together. There is no need for the green dragons to tell
their side of the story! The Black Belt magazine article paints the
entire picture accurately.
Well considering that none of the Black or Green Dragons want to talk
to Floyd, I guess he will have to use that article for the Dragon War
part of the film. Did he ever say he wouldn't? He only asked for more
input from those willing to give it. That's what people do when they
film documentaries. Documentary makers don't just rely on magazine
articles, they try to get actual people to say their thoughts and give
their input.
You're so wrong about that. We both accept "facts". We don't accept
unverifiable facts from people on the Internet that we don't know. Even
you are capable of pre-conceived notions. First you gave Jaraboga's
"Dante under the desk" story credibility, then you said that you
believed Dante was running away after you read the Black Belt article.
See, you're human too, or is it that you have no credibility?
If I don't like you and say if you come to my house and Ill kick your
ass and you come you are wrong. If you are such a great master of the
arts with true Knowledge and Skill. at the levels we speak of Donte
being he should care less what one say about or to him. So yes he chose
his path 4 what ever reasons and nature took it course. For that reason
alone GDS can not be blamed for actions of self defence.
You're right there. I would have done the same thing. Dante should have
been rational enough to handle things in a better way. I certainly
can't blame any of the Green Dragons for defending themselves against
armed attackers.
You punks talk so much shit it is hilarious. I was just born when this
thing happened but I know this. All you dragon bruce-lee wannnbes
cannot fight. I knocked out two of you guys personally. You know who
you are. Step to me in the ring at Crunch Marina Towers, to hell with
Dojo War come to the Ring War, you kung-fu faggots. None of you can
fight
*sigh* You just made whoever your teacher(s) are very proud. Remember
what you say and do is reresentative of everyone that taught &
trained w/you. Martial science is about longevity,healing, as well as
destruction..not about running ones mouth. Lastly, we all age..climb
into the ring at 55,60,70..and effectively defend your life..that would
be impressive. Remember the lesson of the willow
Its on WEbb's count dante site where he reiterates that Dante was a
cofounder of the USKA. Thanbk you for acknowledging that. jaraboga's
scenario may have some merit, but I will trust the Black Belt report as
the World's Leading Magazine on Self Defense. Their report seems to
have covered every aspect on the incident in 1970. It is the first time
I read it.
I'm sure Floyd just misunderstood Dante's role in the USKA as I did.
I'm sure after he reads this he will make sure that wrong info doesn't
get into the film. See, that is a perfect example of why he needs input
from fellas like you. He is on his own researching info that dates back
half a century. That is a very daunting task I'm sure. However, I think
that although Dante didn't form the USKA his promotion idea's is
probably what made it such a big and successful organization.
I have an open mind, and am willing to explore all the options and
possibilities. Yoou were insistent on your positions, yet as a result
of this intense, heated exchange, you have changed your position on
three major points. I will grant that you are willing to change your
mind. That is the true spirit of the martial arts, mutual respect and
humility!
I salute you Jonh Patricio, you are a better man than I originally
thought. Unlike the foolhardy braggart who issues insults and
challenges without having a clue as to who he is addressing. Oh well,
times change, people change much more slowly and with greater
difficulty. kikdragonass hasn't learned a thing from the information
revealed here!
I am always willing to admit when I am wrong about something. I also
have an open mind. I just find it hard to trust the words of someone
from the Internet that I don't know without evidence. You provided
evidence and thus corrected me and won my agreement. Bravo.
OJ!OJ! What!?! Look Dante was a great martial arts practitioner. But no
way would he have been the greatest ever. NO WAY! OJ, you had me going
man. I was thinking to myself, WOW, this cat has tamed down the black
dragons, he's softened them up. Then you make that last statement. Man
OJ, i'm disappointed.
That's like saying this Warren guy is the greatest green dragon guy
ever to live!! I don't know. Maybe I'm overreacting. Anyway. This has
been a blast! What happened to everyobe else? Did QLK shut them down
too?? Am I the last one standing in the ring? QLK, you are one BAD
MUTHAAAA!!!
So much of this thread is dealing with the death of Jim Koncevik. Mr.
Webb, when you spoke with Chi Shih Warren, did he tell you his famous
story about who killed Dante? He loves telling everyone that story.
Would you agree that the circumstances surrounding Dante's death ought
to be part of a movie focused on his life. Also, C.S. Warren has always
said that Jim Koncevik was killed by a spear to the throat, but I am
just a Instructor. Considering all of this..I don't know what to
believe.
Now this is serious. Warren has been accused of id theft, credit card
fraud, sexual misconduct, being a rogue "man of the cloth", cheating
his students out of thousands of dollars...and this guy is your
"SOURCE"? DUDE!! You are in a sorry situation. Did you pay Warren to
"testify"?.
FOR A WEEK NOW YOU DRAMA QUEENS BEEN TALKIN ABOUT EVERYTHING BUT, THE
VID!!!master, or the students there now have nothing to do with
that!!!!
Webb, don't you check out your sources? To see if they are legit,
credible? Man, I went to that web page that exblackdragon indicated.
I read the Black Belt article posted by johnpatricio. Now here's what is crazy. JP posts the article, but it seems like he never read it!! What is that? What gives? You guys don't check your own sources?!? Sloppy work fellas, sloppy work. The Evil Han: "Are you shocked Mr. williams?" Williams responds: "Only how sloppy your man works."
I read the Black Belt article posted by johnpatricio. Now here's what is crazy. JP posts the article, but it seems like he never read it!! What is that? What gives? You guys don't check your own sources?!? Sloppy work fellas, sloppy work. The Evil Han: "Are you shocked Mr. williams?" Williams responds: "Only how sloppy your man works."
Yo, LongYing, that video ain't sheeyat!! you know that. The "master" is
a fake! Everyone has commented to that effect. The real story has
become the dragon wars. Get with the program dude. This is what is
happening. or perhaps, you have nothing too share or reveal on the
subject matter. If so....Lay-low.
everyone has [and i mean everyone] benefited from Chi Shih Warren: his
teachings; his forms; his internal knowings. most of u got ur rank from
him. u honor him. this is a direct command. his b-day is in March.
unbalance not his chi. honor him as we go into 2008. u are "ranked"
because of him.
we have a vast collection of videos of all the rank exams. if u have a
problem with warren RELEASE ur RANKS NOW! Lay them DOWN NOW! Chih Shih
Warren is to be respected, honored, and revered. Always! He is your
master teacher. All teachings go back to him. Whatever you are teaching
are from his "ways" including INTERNAL POWER.
And if Warren "helped" Webb, so what? Again this the master's LOVE
"flourishing the fountain". And not one time have "we" bashed you guys.
There are 3 contemporary Professors: Wong Lee; Douglass Nowakunski; and
Gerald Ray Warren. The Triangle is complete. These 3 men completed CHI
TAO ARTS. All altars shld have a pic of each PROFESSOR. Show some
respect.
If Warren was excommunicated, then why did Grandmaster Dean Chambers
"work" with him in the early 90's? And he was the Grandmaster. His sash
was never burned. Warren never left his sash on the altar for anyone to
touch it!
Those who post bad things about the master, you ought to be ashamed of
yourselves. Has the master not talked to you about the love of Christ?
Yes, even as he carried around and used a credit card with my name on
it that I didn't apply for, approve or know about. Praise his name!
The video does show the evidence of real CHI. If you are a student of
Chih Shih Warren he has taught you the knowledge of Internal Power.
Chih Shih has always broken bricks with CHI not brute strength
Anyone who has given Chih Shih Warren money knows that it was a love
offering. You have dues, payments, and temple donations [love
offerings]. You all have knowledge of this. there was no wrong doings.
As far as this Emiel/ redcheetah. He left us when he was a blue sash.
We have no record that he was ever even a green sash! His claims are
baseless. Plus his giving of a credit card was a "temple donation".
The sex stuff never did happen. These are women who were disgruntled
because they could not keep up payments on their CONTRACTS for studies.
They are upset b/c they were sent to collections. We have records!
Again Chih Shih Gerald Ray Warren never stole anyone's ID. All students
who make such claims, such as dinner tabs were all present. This ppl
actually took the master out for dinner meetings.
...even though the stolen card was used in places I never visited? Out of state (or country) while I was home?
If the Warren was name is so bad, why has he not be taken to court? He
is an upstanding man in Illinios. A business owner; an international
emissary for Tai Chi relations in China; a minister of GOD; and a
family man. His character will not be disgrace by this SMEAR CAMPAIGN
That wasn't the same Tai Chi Master (Chen) he accused of attempted sexual assualt, was it? (DON'T beleive that accusation)
For this public record: those who say he used ID theft are telling
fabrications. As a man of GOD, Warren never did use scams. As a
passport holder/ and Chinese emissary, Warren has been upright as a
taxpaying citizen.
These liars are chitaoman/ chitaogungfu/ quietladyscorpion/ redcheetah/
havebeenwatching you. These ppl for public record are distributing a
SMEAR CAMPAIGN against Mr. Gerald Ray Warren.
These claims can be NEGATED by talking with masters: Arnold, Price,
Booker, Burkley, and many others. They know the Chi Shih has been
upright. Learn to honor. Learn about not "bearing false witness". The
Bible talks of these things. Have you not heard?
There is only evidence that Chi Shih Warren loved all of his students.
Certain students were jaded because these were the ones who missed
class sessions. They were not in attendance for teachings. Did the
master not have an "attendance book" before walking thru the gate?
Professor Warren is now in China. Upon his return, he will be notified
of such corruption. Know that as a man of GOD, he will forgive all of
those who have typed slander and falsehoods.
Perhaps you will celebrate his birthday with him in March 2008. All are
invited for this joyous event. This is a time to honor him as the next
professor in the lineage of the art of Chi Tao Chuan
You seem to have deleted your account (again) without responding to my "Evidence Challenge"... What a shame.
Whoever you are..know that Christ loves you!
He hates sin, but loves the sinner!
He is quick to forgive.
And you must follow those teachings.
Did you celebrate his b-day? It was 12/25/
He hates sin, but loves the sinner!
He is quick to forgive.
And you must follow those teachings.
Did you celebrate his b-day? It was 12/25/
As far as a Jose Salazar being the Imperial Leopard that is false. Chih
Shih Warren is the Imperial Leopard Dragon. He never was defeated in
the bloodmatches. He is Internal Chi Gung Master. And he is the
undisputed "forms" champion in Chi Tao arts
I speak for Chi Shih Warren. I can say many things. For public record
on youtube...Gerald Ray Warren was given many dinner dates by students
who paid with credit cards. No ID theft was ever executed. None.
As for Blue sash Emiel, he is mad b/c we have records of him going to
collections. This goes for quietladyscorpion. These ppl were sent to
collections b/c they could not pay the $20 per week agreement. They
knew this at their $5 [interview] with Chi Shih Warren
Now I say to you: "TING" there is no more bad mouthing Professor
Warren. The corrupted words from these various ppl is to stop
immediately. Stop the slander. Xie, xie
Congrats to Floyd Webb! We would love to see your fabulous film when it is released. We will be there to support you.
4 public record on youtube: the "paper trail" is actually forged
documents and even counterfeit documents with the aid of new digital
technology. Again Warren is being SLANDERED.
*Sigh* Listen Gerald i got a call about this...I told you to keep my
name from your lips. It was a simple request. As i said I am Tim. As
before..I speak as a man and with truth and full dominion. No need to
hide. This is the 3rd time i asked..there will be no more. Play your
games with someone else. You only embarass yourself further.